Academician Yuri Trutnev is the last of a great galaxy of scientists who began working with Kurchatov on the “Atomic Project” and created a powerful nuclear shield for the USSR. Trutnev received the Lenin Prize at the age of 32, and the title of Hero of Socialist Labor at the age of 35. Together with Sakharov, he proposed the idea of the world’s largest hydrogen bomb, which Khrushchev called “Kuzka’s Mother” and frightened America with it. Trutnev created the type of nuclear warheads that today forms the basis of Russia's strategic security. A Culture columnist met with the academician, who recently celebrated his 85th birthday.
culture: We must honestly admit that today physics and science in general do not occupy the minds of young people. During your youth, things were clearly different. How did you become interested in science?
Trutnev: Physics is romance. There is nothing more romantic than doing science. I feel sorry for people who don't understand this. Science is an amazing thing that, like music and poetry, makes your spirit stand still in admiration. I am far from young, but I have retained this attitude towards science. Only a physicist can look at the sky and understand what it is. As a schoolboy I was interested in chemistry, biology, paleontology, but the most beautiful thing was nuclear physics. I rummaged through books and knew that atomic energy can be used for various purposes. As a schoolboy, he lectured soldiers about atomic energy. Throughout the war, my father was the commander of an air defense battalion in Leningrad. By the way, I graduated from the same school on Fontanka where Zeldovich and Raikin studied. O found out by stopping at a newspaper stand on the boulevard. I grabbed my head - we fell behind! Even before the war I knew the names of Khariton and Zeldovich, but I could not even think that I would work with them in the “Atomic Project”.
culture: In the first half of the twentieth century, the leader of world science was Germany, which collected the main crop of Nobel Prizes. In the field of nuclear physics, breakthrough work was carried out in Germany - Heisenberg, Pauli, von Laue, Hahn and Strassmann, Gerlach. These scientists remained in Germany. Why didn't Hitler make an atomic bomb?
Trutnev: Hitler was obsessed with blitzkrieg and decided not to create new weapons unless he got results within 6 months. Hitler ridiculed the idea of an atomic bomb, but even the great Pauli and Heisenberg did not believe that America would create such a weapon. The United States was helped by emigrant scientists from Europe - Einstein, Fermi, Szilard, Ulm, Kistyakovsky. But even if Hitler had nuclear weapons, it would not have changed the course of the war - the Allied superiority was too great. As for the USSR, the war slowed us down. I am sure: if not for the enormous resources spent on the war, the USSR would have been the first to master atomic energy. Our scientists had a colossal sense of responsibility. Now it's hard to understand what I'm talking about. But the creation of an atomic bomb is a consequence of war. If World War II had not broken out, then with a high probability the atomic bomb would not have appeared. I know for sure that Khariton and Zeldovich did not even think about the atomic bomb at first.
culture: You spent your whole life under a shroud of secrecy; your name was first mentioned in Sakharov’s “Memoirs” only in the 1990s. Together with Sakharov, you worked to improve technologies for mass extermination of people. In 1961, according to your project, the “Kuzkina Mother” bomb was created and tested with a yield of 100 megatons, 5 thousand times stronger than the one dropped on Hiroshima. Is there a contradiction in such a path of life with the humanistic essence of man? Your co-author on the legendary RDS-37 product, Academician Sakharov, eventually became a zealous fighter for peace and disarmament.
Trutnev: You are alive - this is the answer to the question about the role of the atomic bomb in history. The fate of the country for a long time depended on whether we had an atomic bomb. And then - how effective the bomb is. We must not forget that America was waving its bomb menacingly. If it were not for the United States, we would first learn to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes.
The atomic project accelerated the development of the USSR, although we must not forget about the camps and forced labor. As a witness to those events, I can say that Beria’s role as an excellent organizer was very great. Beria never came to us in Arzamas, but when Khariton asked, he did not give the scientists offense to the authorities.
I must say that I have always been out of politics and studied physics. Military applications are indifferent to science; they are the product of the will of politicians. But as for Sakharov’s activities, I do not agree with him. And I am sure that Sakharov himself would be horrified by the current state of the country, when speculators and schemers leave entire fortunes abroad, which could be used to do a lot of useful things. Objectively, Sakharov, without knowing it, helped the collapse of the country, and the freedoms received, as it turned out, did not lead to the flourishing of the economy, industry, and science. Fraud has become widespread. Huxley's statement that you cannot grind quinoa into wheat flour and that you cannot obtain truth from incorrect premises is relevant. I saw Sakharov three days before his death, we went to his house with Khariton. They talked for a long time, argued about where the country was going, and in parting, Khariton said: “Andrei Dmitrievich, but you are a player.” This was the last meeting of the great scientists, whom I consider Khariton and Sakharov.
As long as nuclear arsenals exist and potentially threaten Russia, I will work to ensure security.
culture: You have been a member of the Academy of Sciences since 1964, that is, half a century. Compared to previous times, it seems that science is on the margins of public attention, and the authorities can easily do without the Academy of Sciences and turn to it for recommendations in exceptional cases. What threatens the country with a prolonged decline in interest in science and spiritual values in general?
Trutnev: World experience, especially in recent centuries, knows no exceptions to the rigid rule: the development of mankind is based on the achievements of science. Today's US economic leadership would not be possible without advanced science. When we competed with the United States in the creation of atomic weapons, our science was no worse and our economy did not lag so disconsolately behind the American one. Then, during the Cold War, the Kremlin elders lost everything, the lag began with Khrushchev.
China has transformed itself from a run-down country into a world leader thanks to high technology and attention to science. None of our top officials, unlike in previous times, have anything to do with science, and hopes for the market only led to clever people robbing the country and wasting money on stupid things. But this disgrace cannot continue for long. Either there will be a collapse, or the country will begin to rise, and without science this is impossible. The time of talkers and quasi-politicians cannot last forever. Stop worrying about yourself and lining your pockets, it's boring.
Russian science retains its potential, but the trouble is that it is not young people who are really working, but 60-year-old scientists. Recently, money has come in and there has been a positive trend. Only young scientists should grow in real work, in promising areas, but the authorities do not set any major tasks for science.
Russia urgently needs, as I say, “fresh ideas.” We must constantly rise to a new level and set new goals for ourselves. I have been guided by this principle all my life, and this is the only way to maintain my qualifications. I think I’ll be pestering my bosses with fresh ideas for another ten years.
culture: In 1965, according to your project, a nuclear explosion was carried out in Semipalatinsk and the large Chagan Lake was created. Minister Slavsky bathed in it and remained a minister until he was 90 years old. Have you swam in Chagan?
Trutnev: I swam and went fishing. My wife Luda, with whom I have been married for 55 years, is horrified by this. They drew lines with nonsense, the ear was irresistible. But still, the level of radiation on the lake is still higher than normal. If nuclear explosions are carried out for peaceful purposes, then only in uninhabited areas.
- (b. December 2, 1927) Soviet physicist, member. cor. USSR Academy of Sciences (1964). R. in Moscow. Graduated from Leningrad University (1950). Main works in the field of theoretical physics. Lenin Prize (1959), Hero of Socialist Labor (1962). Trutnev, Yuri Alekseevich... ... Large biographical encyclopedia
- (b. 1927) Russian physicist, academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences (199..1), Hero of Socialist Labor. Works on theoretical physics. Lenin Prize (1959), USSR State Prize (1984) ... Big Encyclopedic Dictionary
- (b. November 2, 1927, Moscow), Soviet physicist, corresponding member of the USSR Academy of Sciences (1964), Hero of Socialist Labor. Member of the CPSU since 1961. Graduated from Leningrad State University in 1950. Main works on theoretical physics. Lenin Prize. Awarded 2 Orders of Lenin, Order... ... Great Soviet Encyclopedia
- (b. 1927), physicist, academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences (1991), Hero of Socialist Labor (1962). Proceedings on theoretical nuclear physics. Lenin Prize (1959), USSR State Prize (1984). * * * TRUTNEV Yuri Alekseevich TRUTNEV Yuri Alekseevich (b. 1927),… … encyclopedic Dictionary
- ... Wikipedia
- (b. November 2, 1927, Moscow) Soviet and Russian scientist physicist, full member of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Doctor of Technical Sciences, Hero of Socialist Labor (1962), holder of the Order of Lenin (1956), holder of the Order of Merit... ... Wikipedia
Yuri Petrovich Trutnev ... Wikipedia
On November 2, the legendary nuclear physicist Academician Yuri Trutnev, the scientist who pioneered the design of modern Russian nuclear weapons, celebrated his 90th birthday. Largely thanks to his work, nuclear parity between the Soviet Union and the United States and, ultimately, security on the entire planet became possible.
VGTRK correspondent Maria Saushkina became the first among journalists who managed to visit Yuri Alekseevich’s home and ask him about his work on secret projects.
One of the creators of the hydrogen bomb is 90, but he is still like a boy: youthfully cheerful, cheerful and, as before, stubborn. Tempering and conditioning - a genius physicist, on whose shoulders lay the burden of responsibility for world peace and on whose discoveries and research the balance of the world depended - is not slowing down even today.
Explosion. Chain reaction. Communications are being cut off all over the world. There is an all-consuming energy of force, incinerating everything in its path. In 1955, the Russians established a new world order, bringing the world into balance. The nuclear race has stopped. The United States has to change its plans - the blow that they wanted to inflict on the Soviets loses its meaning. From now on they can show that same “Kuzka’s mother” overseas.
Once upon a time, these missile warheads served as the shield of our Motherland, and the most powerful bomb in the world played a huge political role - it was after it was exploded at the test site that the Moscow Treaty was signed to stop testing in three environments at once: in space, in the air and in water.
Academy town in Sarov - one of the most secret places in the world. The genius physicist Trutnev meets us in his wooden mansion. All his life he didn’t need anything except science. Having experienced the hardships and deprivations of war in his youth, he longed for only one thing - so that this would not happen again. With this fuse, the young physicist, leaving everything, moved from St. Petersburg to the secret city of Arzamas-16.
"On St. Isaac's Square, opposite my father's institute, there is the former German embassy. I saw a colossal red flag with a swastika. For me it was a blow to the heart. That is why I went, so that such things would not happen again. Evil can only be defeated by evil. You are bad “You’re behaving, let’s make peace with you - this is all for the children,” says Yuri Trutnev, academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences, first deputy head of the Russian Federal Nuclear Center.
The hydrogen bomb was created in the Soviet Union in every sense contrary to that. In the hungry post-war years, when the country was just getting back on its feet, they began working almost from scratch on a thermonuclear bomb. They were created in the image and likeness of the American one, intelligence reported, but firmly following the principle of “catch up and overtake.”
What was inside the bomb remained to be unraveled. The principle of radiation implosion, which Soviet scientists did not know about. It was Trutnev who understood how this principle works. The American hydrogen bomb was bulky - the size of a three-story house - but ours, exceeding all expectations, could be delivered by bomber to any point on the planet.
“We knew that the Americans had done it. It made us think and think. As a result, in 1955 we discovered this principle and this thermonuclear charge,” Trutnev recalls.
Today, all over the world there is a new race to use thermonuclear energy as efficiently as possible in a peaceful manner. The Federal Nuclear Center under the leadership of the Rosatom corporation in Sarov is confidently among the leaders in this competition of powers.
A project to create a powerful laser with which the thermonuclear reaction will be used in production.
“The developments that were made 50-60 years ago, including those associated with the name of Yuri Alekseevich Trutnev, are now being used and will be used, among other things, to obtain thermonuclear energy for industrial purposes. And the project that is now being implemented here is is a project that can ensure our country’s leadership in the field of thermonuclear energy,” noted RAS President Alexander Sergeev.
Research centers in France, China, Russia and the USA are now simultaneously working on the creation of a powerful laser of this class. Who will be the first to obtain this peaceful energy of thermonuclear fusion, scientists will answer in just a few years.
Vladimir GUBAREV.
Andrei Dmitrievich Sakharov left an inheritance to each of us. One - his own understanding of the world and society, another - conscientiousness, a third - courage and the ability to fight, and all together - that very “Sakharov’s world”, which has already become an exciting page in the history of not only our Motherland, but also the life of humanity in the 20th century. Yuri Alekseevich Trutnev also inherited responsibility for the fate of nuclear and thermonuclear weapons, which were created under the leadership of Academician Sakharov. Still, we should not forget that he was not only a great humanist, but also an equally great theoretical physicist. Trutnev is not just Sakharov’s colleague, his ally (they worked together for many years and met for the last time a few days before the death of Andrei Dmitrievich), but most importantly, a like-minded person. Yes, we didn’t always agree, yes, we argued, but we always found a common point of view. Both in science and in politics. Therefore, Yuri Trutnev today occupies the same position at the Federal Nuclear Center (All-Russian Research Institute of Experimental Physics) and the same position that previously belonged to Sakharov.
Academician Trutnev looks tired. He has just returned from Moscow. The Russian government held a regular meeting at which disarmament problems were discussed, and again - for the umpteenth time! - I had to listen to different opinions about the fate of nuclear weapons. It’s difficult for Yuri Alekseevich because his views are unusual, and some colleagues and members of the public are critical of them. You can, of course, give in to one or the other, but this is not in Trutnev’s character - we remember whose inheritance fell on his shoulders!
- As far as I know, you, Yuri Alekseevich, have a special point of view on nuclear disarmament?
Why "special"? I just think as a citizen and a specialist. The fact is that the already familiar words are heard addressed to us: “They should just blow things up!” They attribute to us the fear of losing our jobs and so on. We will never lose our jobs even if we stop working on weapons. Our specialty is of such a wide profile - it is related to various areas of physics, technologies, designs, that we will always find use for our strengths, and partly this is already happening. It is important to understand that arms reduction is a completely natural process. So talk about job loss and a “thirst to blow up” is often not just incompetence, but a desire to gain political capital. It is fashionable to criticize nuclear weapons and those who dealt with military issues. But we must not forget that in our world - complex, riddled with crises - the country still needs defense. And nuclear weapons, from my point of view, are the cheapest way to prevent any threats, any difficulties. Nuclear weapons are also political weapons. It forces a possible aggressor to think seriously before starting a conflict with a country where it exists. For us, nuclear weapons are of particular importance - such is the geopolitical position of the country. It’s good for the Americans - they sit across three oceans, and we are in the very center of the continent. And who said it was calm?! Let's remember borders and territorial claims. I am not speaking from the point of view of any imperial ambitions, but simply stating reality.
- Are you concerned about the current state of affairs in Russia?
Certainly. The crisis is deep. In addition, we must live not only for today. And what to expect in the future is still unknown. At least the Americans are not going to give up nuclear weapons, we are only talking about reduction. And I think this is correct. Why was there an arms race, why were so many nuclear weapons accumulated? These questions should not be answered by scientists. Claims must be made to politicians, because the development of events depended primarily on them.
- Were you just performers? Or did they, to some extent, determine the country’s nuclear strategy?
Of course, we did not define it, but our work influenced the behavior of political figures. I am not going to make excuses, moreover, I do not regret at all that I took part in the creation of weapons. We worked to strengthen the country's defense capabilities, and without sparing ourselves. Together with the entire country, because nuclear weapons are the work of many thousands of people. And our conscience is clear, since we did not have Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And there have never been any accidents with weapons... Where is the tree, I’ll knock...
I know that recently a group of Russian specialists was invited to the United States, where they were shown ways and means of dealing with such accidents. So to speak, the Americans shared their own sad experiences.
Fortunately, we haven’t had such serious accidents... Well, what now? It seems to me that nuclear weapons will exist for quite a long time. They say: "weapons of mass destruction." What happened to Dresden? How many residents died there as a result of "carpet bombing"? About forty thousand... This is without any atomic bomb. And in Iraq?... Of course, nuclear weapons have special properties, a multifactorial impact, but modern types of weapons too, I would say...
-...not a gift!
That's it! So it is necessary to think much more broadly, not focusing only on nuclear weapons. In my opinion, the future of nuclear weapons is, first of all, reducing the number of ammunition, increasing the safety of their storage, especially in our country, and creating new, more reliable types.
- In this case, tests are necessary?
Weapons cannot exist without them. I sometimes hear that it is possible to create weapons and not test them. And they refer to Andrei Dmitrievich Sakharov. I talked to him about this three days before he died. He did not change his point of view, although I tried to convince him and recalled several cases from our joint work. I have deep respect for Andrei Dmitrievich, I am his student, but in this case he is wrong. If you approach weapons as a technical means, then you cannot do without testing... By the way, the most curious thing is that those who have nothing to do with the creation of weapons are starting to talk about this... In fact, the issue of testing is highly politicized. Yes, there were air tests. That's one thing. Underground is completely different. Even in that memorable conversation, Andrei Dmitrievich admitted that underground nuclear explosions are safe. I say this for those who are accustomed to referring to authorities.
- But this is if there are security guarantees?
We have technology that means there will be no emissions at all. For some reason it is still classified. I believe that all this data should be brought to the attention of the public who are discussing the trials. Why hide something new?!
I want to emphasize that a professional army must deal with nuclear weapons, and responsibility is required when handling them. And a strategy of flexible containment and flexible response must be chosen. Troops equipped with nuclear weapons will respond to these goals... They often say: who is going to attack us? If you follow this logic, then there is no need for an army or weapons. The weaker we are, the more temptations there will be - in my opinion, this is clear.
Yuri Alekseevich, there are rumors that the idea of retargeting our missiles from targets in the United States, which Yeltsin announced, is yours? This proposal, as is known, caused a lot of misunderstandings in the world; moreover, some considered the idea adventurous.
I can only say one thing. That statement by the President spoke about the elimination of anti-American targeting, that is, the removal of flight missions from missiles aimed at the United States. But the press turned everything upside down, saying, let’s redirect it from cities to military installations. This is stupidity, because shooting at cities or military targets is the same thing; radioactive contamination will be everywhere. But to exclude the possibility of shooting altogether is a completely different matter! I believe that this was a political step, a step of goodwill. It was necessary to show that we are not opponents. And frankly, one could have expected a response, but, unfortunately, there was none - American missiles are still aimed at us.
- You mentioned that “we need to deal with the safety of weapons, especially here.” What exactly did you mean?
Not the weapons themselves, but the situation developing in Russia and the republics of the former Soviet Union. A decline in discipline, the possibility of accidents during transportation, and so on.
- Because of the collapse in the country, there is a danger of a “careless” attitude towards weapons?
No, you can't say that. On the contrary, today measures to prevent such accidents are becoming more stringent. The military does most of the work, and we support them with technical means.
- Did you come to the All-Russian Research Institute of Experimental Physics as an ordinary engineer?
Laboratory assistant.
- And now?
First Deputy Scientific Director.
- I know that in Arzamas-16 they don’t chase titles and awards - they are given. What are yours?
Academician. Ph.D. I never applied for the title of “professor” - I didn’t have time, and I don’t attach any importance to it. Laureate of Lenin and State Prizes. Hero of Socialist Labor... And so on. Why ask about this?
- To ask the following question: what is the most valuable award for you?
When you get what you think. I don’t mean an award, but the implementation of a scientific idea.
- When did you first feel this?
For real, for the first time in 1958... No, excuse me, earlier... in 1955!.. Then we had a real technological breakthrough - we implemented one idea to which I had the most direct connection.
- Sometimes nuclear scientists are called “blind hawks.” Is it offensive to read and hear this?
It’s not so much a shame for ourselves - we’ve been through other things too. But it’s bitter about the speculation around weapons, about the atmosphere in the country and in science. Everyone is looking for the reason why their lives have become worse: who is to blame? And then there’s the answer: the military-industrial complex. He supposedly devoured everything... And from here comes anger, hostility, even meanness. But this is not so! There is a substitution of concepts - “effect” is swapped with “cause”. Political games again.
- Do you think the creation of nuclear weapons made it possible to break into new areas of natural science?
Undoubtedly. We have to deal with physical phenomena that cannot be reproduced in laboratory conditions. Temperatures - tens, hundreds of millions of degrees, pressures - billions of atmospheres, densities - hundreds of thousands of grams per cubic centimeter, times - hundred-millionths of a second... Completely new areas of physics have appeared here.
- What is “hundred millionths of a second”? How to understand and comprehend this?
It is necessary to comprehend in order to make calculations. But, of course, it is impossible to feel it.
- When you are immersed in calculations, don’t you get the feeling that you are living in another world?
I think no. Psychology doesn't change.
Although, perhaps, we all live in a world that is difficult to understand. Here the Sun is shining, and inside it the temperatures are approximately the same...
Not really... Now I’ll do the math... No, there are only millions of degrees at the center of the Sun. Not tens, not hundreds of millions...
- So, the Sun is a relatively simple device compared to an atomic bomb?
No, that's not true! The sun is still a completely unknown object. It is an overly complex system... Everything is simple when you understand how it works... You talk to physicists who work on elementary particles, vacuum, and so on. The abstraction there is so great that it’s hard to imagine! Compared to their constructions, our millions of degrees and billions of atmospheres are simple because they are understandable. We are still capable of creating models, but even this is impossible with them - you can’t explain anything with your fingers...
Let's conduct a small experiment: fast forward 500 years. Do you think current work in physics, in particular on nuclear weapons, will be useful to scientists of that time?
Is what was needed 500 years ago needed today?
- There was a Renaissance...
And now is the era of the scientific and technological revolution!... They will simply look at our affairs with different eyes, understanding the incompleteness of our knowledge... Different historical conditions, people, tasks, interests... Each time has its own...
You have been in Arzamas-16 for a long time. Obviously, there were different periods - once better, then worse. For you personally, when was the hardest time?
At the beginning. At the university they taught it in a scholarly manner, but here the knowledge had to be applied in practice. And even now young people arrive, and it turns out that they need to be retrained right away... At different times it was hard and good, easy and difficult - always in different ways... Life is life, it’s difficult to single out anything from it... Now, of course, more difficulties. And sometimes you don’t know how to overcome them. You look for a solution, you find it, you make a mistake, you look again - there are no recipes.
Just the facts: During the “thermonuclear fever” period of 1956-1958. 59 nuclear tests were carried out in the USSR. In 1958, a new type of thermonuclear charge, “product 49,” was tested. The ideologists of this project and the developers of the physical charge circuit were Yu. A. Trutnev and Yu. N. Babaev. For the creation of “product 49” they were awarded the Lenin Prize...
During the period 1958 and 1961-1962. Yu. A. Trutnev was the most active and effective developer of thermonuclear weapons. Of the 73 nuclear tests of thermonuclear two-stage charges carried out during this period, 45 tested the developments of the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Experimental Physics, while in 28 tests these were developments with the personal participation of Yu. A. Trutnev, and 27 of them were successful. There was nothing like this either before or since.
In 1965, two theoretical sectors, led by Ya. B. Zeldovich and A. D. Sakharov, were combined. Yu. A. Trutnev became the head of the theoretical physicists. In 1964 he was elected a corresponding member of the USSR Academy of Sciences.
- You are a student of Sakharov...
Not only him, but also Zeldovich, Frank-Kamenetsky, Khariton - I had to learn from many.
- Which of them had the greatest influence on you?
At the very early stage, when I first arrived here, - David Albertovich Frank-Kamenetsky. An exceptionally educated person, an intellectual. Very kind. An excellent physicist. He helped me a lot... Our rooms were cramped then, small, and he sat me opposite. And he simply began to quietly teach how to work. At the same time, he brought books that were not directly related to our business, and could read Gumilyov’s poems at the height of the working day... He treated us like a father, I learned a lot from him in a scientific and everyday sense.
Excuse me, what was Gumilyov like at that time?! You live in a closed city, you are being bugged not only at work, but also at home?!
Whether they listened or not, I don’t know. This did not affect us. Moreover, political issues were discussed much more openly here than on the mainland. We were working on a problem of national importance, and therefore the attitude towards us was different from the others. Freedom of thinking in physics is inevitably associated with free thinking in everything, including politics. We were not afraid, we did not think with caution. And besides everything else, a lot of intelligent people worked here - world-famous scientists, and therefore the atmosphere was both friendly and creative. She forced us to show initiative and ingenuity - everyone tried to give a fresh idea. First of all, a person was valued for his ideas, for their development.
- Was it difficult to make a career here?
We didn't think about it. I have employees who have done a lot, and they are not even candidates of science or doctors, although they can be immediately elected as academicians. They just live for work. I believe that Arzamas-16, our institute, is not inferior, for example, to the Siberian Branch of the Academy of Sciences. By the number of qualified personnel, by the variety of topics.
- What do you spend more time on: scientific work or walking around offices?
We have to think about work for employees due to the reduction of the main topic and raise money. We need agreements, we have to look for them.
- Is the problem of “brain drain” far-fetched?
Much will depend on how events develop. I personally think that it is unlikely that our people will leave, although I cannot rule it out. After all, many of those who worked in Arzamas-16 are now “abroad” - I mean Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Belarus... But this is not the main thing.
- Isn’t the fate of weapons outside Russia important?
Politicians will solve this problem. I'm worried about something else. Over the decades, we have developed a unique scientific and technical team that brings together professionals from various specialties. This is the specificity of nuclear weapons, the creation of which brought together theoretical physicists, experimenters, technologists, designers, chemists, and so on. I am afraid that this conglomerate will fall apart in the modern environment. And this will be a loss not only for Russia, but for all world science.
- Do Americans think the same?
Arzamas-16, now Sarov, is the world's largest center of science. Our American colleagues completely agree with this and appreciate our work extremely highly.
Who do you think understands each other better: Russian and American politicians or you, nuclear weapons specialists?
I don’t know about politicians, but we always find a common language with American specialists. We talk like colleagues who know each other's work well.
- Isn’t it strange that you are being released to America? Have you started to trust more, they say, you won’t run away?!
They always trusted us, it was simply impossible to do otherwise. But times have changed, “at the top” they realized that scientific contacts need to be developed, but there is no need for us to run away... Finally, they understood it!
- Let's go back to the past. You talked about Frank-Kamenetsky. Now it’s Yakov Borisovich’s turn.
Zeldovich is an exceptional person and an outstanding physicist. He was able to explain the most complex phenomena simply, clearly, and literally show them on his fingers. We treated him as a major scientist, but there was no “wall” between us. Everyone is equal at work. And when you feel the benevolence of a leader, when you come to him with an idea or an everyday question and you know that he will definitely help and support, then this creates a special atmosphere... Yakov Borisovich was a very witty person, he loved Saltykov-Shchedrin, and often quoted him. Always to the point and to the point.
- Did he change when he left the “facility”?
No. I congratulated him very warmly when I was fifty. He helped if we turned to him. And we never forgot about him. Remember when he was in trouble? Purely political...
I was partly to blame for them. After all, I published a conversation with Zeldovich in Komsomolskaya Pravda. The party Central Committee did not like the headline very much, and soon an order came from there to “condemn Zeldovich as an idealist.” And I came up with the name of our conversation myself at the last moment and did not agree on it with Yakov Borisovich. The headline was: “When the Universe did not yet exist...” That’s where the party ideologists found fault with him.
Then we wrote letters to Kommunist in his defense, but they were not published.
-What was Sakharov like?
At first, we did not know what was going on in the neighboring departments, and therefore did not suspect what Sakharov and his group were doing. And then, in 1953 or even earlier, they began to interact... Andrei Dmitrievich was then a completely different person than the one everyone knows. This can be seen even from the photographs... We worked very closely and fully felt the happiness of communicating with him. We had a trusting relationship. They talked about everything: from nuclear charges to political issues... What is characteristic of him? He knew how to see the essence of the question, and he already had a ready answer. It's amazing! He was inventive, he had a huge amount of ideas! Many of our departments still live on his ideas and develop them. Suffice it to say that together with Tamm he proposed Tokamak. Laser thermonuclear fusion, the ideas associated with it - it was just being born before my eyes... Well, and the first hydrogen, thermonuclear bomb - he was one of those who invented it... Sakharov largely supported our endeavors. I had a friend, Yuri Nikolaevich Babaev. We were able to take a slightly different look at what was before, and a new design appeared, which underlies a number of products. Andrey Dmitrievich supported us right away! Of course, we didn’t think that he could leave Arzamas - how could we live without him?! But from a certain point on, he wanted to leave... And his wife too, I mean Klavdiya Alekseevna... As I understand it, he felt that he had solved major problems and needed to change his field of activity. I was looking for a new application of forces... I do not belittle his role in the democratization of society, his political activities, but it is still a pity that he could not fully engage in science.
- One question torments me: why didn’t the physicists in Arzamas-16 protest when Sakharov was exiled to Gorky?
Indeed, there were no protests, although everyone understood perfectly well that something wrong was happening. That’s why they didn’t sign letters against Andrei Dmitrievich, moreover, when he was in disgrace in Moscow, they came to him, talked, communicated... No, there was no civil cowardice. Still, we have always lived under the burden of responsibility, realizing that the country’s nuclear defense rests on our shoulders, regardless of what political storms occur on the “Mainland”. And, by the way, Sakharov understood this. I remember he returned from Gorky. There was a general meeting of the Academy. We - several people - stood and talked. Everyone worked at different times in Arzamas-16. Suddenly someone takes me by the hand and says: “Yura.” I turn around. I didn't recognize him at first! Aged, gray-haired... “Lord, Andrei Dmitrievich, dear!” We hugged and talked...
- Did you harbor any grudges?
He understood everything, and he understood us well... You asked a difficult question. To be honest, there is no answer to this...
And one more thing. The house where you live is opposite Sakharov’s house - the street separates it. NKVD officers with dogs led columns of prisoners along it. Every morning to work, and back in the evening. Did this influence you? In his memoirs, Sakharov only mentions the fact itself - the participation of prisoners in the creation of the “object”.
One evening I left my friends’ house and started crossing the street. I walked between the prisoners and the guard, and suddenly he attacked me with a carbine, completely brutalized... I remember these columns, the prisoners worked here until 1957. I understand Sakharov, he did not want to talk or write about this in detail - this is a tragic part of our history, all of us, without exception. You need to know and remember, but you can’t savor it... They don’t talk about it, but they think about it... Everyone has something purely personal, their own. When Sakharov’s anniversary passed - his 70th birthday, I refused to speak with my memoirs, because too many today like to talk about their closeness to him... By the way, he knew how to sign with both hands - “A. Sakharov”... I remember one day I came to work in minor mood, this happened often. I went up to the blackboard, started writing something, walked away and suddenly began reading Pushkin’s “Road Complaints”... It amazed me. This is one of my favorites: “How long will I walk in the world...” Andrei Dmitrievich was a great man, I mean - not a specialist, not a physicist, not a humanist, but a human being. He reminded me of a knight of conscience - the last authority that could resolve any disputes. If Sakharov said so, then it is so...
- And Khariton? What is characteristic of Yuliy Borisovich?
The ability to get into the most subtle things. He often noticed things that others didn't notice. It seemed like he was doing small things! And then it turned out that this “little thing” grew into a huge problem. His motto: “We need to know ten times more than we do!” And he is certainly right... One can only be amazed at his courage: the man gave all of himself to his work. One of the main features is the ability to persistently achieve a solution to the task that has been set. And we owe a lot to Khariton for the creation of nuclear weapons in our country.
Yuri Trutnev. A few words about the future: “If unity and the desire to jointly overcome the gigantic problems facing humanity prevail in the world (depletion of raw materials, food shortages, environmental crisis, spiritual impoverishment), then the need for many types of national weapons will naturally disappear. If civilization will be overwhelmed by the chaos of all kinds of conflicts, then the ideas of national (bloc) salvation will dominate, and in this case one can foresee the emergence of a new arms race, specific to the conditions of a multipolar world. It can be predicted that the United States will retain its nuclear forces for a long time, at least until "until real life shows which path world development will take. It would be appropriate for Russia to adhere to such an approach, especially since it has everything necessary for this."
- Do you regret your life?
No. There were both bad and good things in the life of our generation. I try to remember the best.
In 2002, the 75th anniversary of the birth of Academician Yu. A. Trutnev was celebrated. To mark the anniversary, a monograph was published in which the scientist spoke about his work. For many decades they were strictly classified. Some of them are amazing...
For example, one of the works performed by Yu. Trutnev, Yu. Babaev and A. Pevnitsky in 1963 was called: “Stationary installation for producing active substances and electricity using nuclear and thermonuclear explosions.” In it, the authors wrote:
“A different approach to the problem of mastering nuclear energy is possible - the use of explosive-type processes for industrial purposes. Specially designed atomic and thermonuclear charges can find application in many branches of science and technology. The most tempting to us seems to be the use of nuclear explosions for the production of electricity and fissile substances...”
Very little time will pass, and the future academician Yu. A. Trutnev will take direct part in the program of using nuclear explosions for peaceful purposes. The creation of an artificial lake in the desert and underground storage facilities, extinguishing gas and oil gushers, geophysical research and geological exploration and much more - all this allowed us to say that the “peaceful professions” of atomic weapons are quite real.
But the project proposed in 1963 was more daring:
“The explosion is carried out under such conditions that the released energy is concentrated in a limited volume of a substance and then taken away by gradual cooling of this substance. It seems possible to create a special charge in which the neutrons released during the explosion will be almost completely absorbed by uranium-238 or thorium-232 "When neutrons are absorbed, uranium-238 turns into plutonium-239, and thorium-232 into uranium-233..."
In essence, we are talking about obtaining the “main” explosives, that is, the reproduction of unique materials. We explode plutonium and... we get the same plutonium in even larger quantities!
By the way, immediately after our first bomb test in August 1949, two great physicists G. Flerov and D. Frank-Kamenetsky proposed detonating atomic charges deep underground. It was assumed that the rocks would melt and for quite a long time there would be a temperature of about three thousand degrees. If you drill wells and pump water through this “nuclear stove,” you can release energy to the surface. And when the rock cools completely, a new deposit of artificial elements - plutonium and uranium-233 - is formed underground.
“In our opinion, carrying out explosions in a stationary installation (chamber) is a more realistic way of using nuclear and thermonuclear charges to generate electricity and active substances...
Particularly interesting is the use of thermonuclear charges. They use cheap deuterium as a “combustible” material. Fissile substances are used only as a fuse for thermonuclear reactions...
The use of thermonuclear explosions, apparently, is the most realistic way in the problem of mastering thermonuclear reactions, since the problem of releasing thermonuclear energy and neutrons has already been solved in the charges. Although the task of localizing explosions is difficult, these difficulties are not of a fundamental nature."
What is a facility for the production of fissile substances and electricity? This is a special chamber filled with coolant gas. A charge explodes in its center. The temperature of the gas rises to almost one and a half thousand degrees, and the pressure to 300 atmospheres. In the heat exchanger, the gas releases energy - within an hour the temperature drops three times, and the pressure also decreases sharply. You can make the next explosion...
The walls of the chamber are made of very durable material. Steel is best suited for this. The thickness of the wall is about five meters. The diameter of the chamber is 120 meters. In such a chamber it is possible to detonate a charge of approximately the same power that was dropped on Hiroshima.
The authors of the project studied different coolant options that can be used in such a superchamber. Even water sprayed into small particles, filling the entire volume, was studied. However, it had to be abandoned: creating such tiny droplets is technically difficult. Still, the primacy remains with hydrogen.
It is quite difficult to introduce new nuclear charges into the chamber - after all, its tightness cannot be violated. Therefore, the authors developed a special sluice device that allows the charge to be lowered on a cable into the very center of the explosion chamber. And this is done every hour. The creation of such a device is in itself unique.
A lot of ingenuity was required from scientists when developing a heat exchanger, a filter device, compressors, piping systems and even a power plant. According to calculations, it turned out that the power plant’s capacity would be about four million kilowatts.
Fantastic project! Of course, there are a lot of technical problems. Thermonuclear charges as fuel - nothing like this has ever existed. But until quite recently nothing was known about thermonuclear weapons themselves! Moreover, physicists were convinced that it was impossible to reproduce the processes occurring on the Sun under terrestrial conditions... However, artificial suns were lit at nuclear test sites, why can’t they be used for the benefit of people, and not for destruction?!
Yu. Trutnev and A. Pevnitsky were required to conduct an economic feasibility study for the project. And in 1964, another secret work appeared, in which scientists give economic assessments of their proposals.
In particular, they claim:
“Attempts to implement a controlled thermonuclear reaction encounter a number of fundamental difficulties, and it is unlikely that an industrial power plant will be created on its basis in the near future. Much greater success has been achieved towards the creation of systems in which the expanded reproduction of nuclear fuel is carried out. Already designed and operating successfully fast neutron breeder reactors with a breeding factor significantly greater than one.
In our opinion, it is quite realistic and, perhaps, promising, especially during the period of gradual transition of the energy sector to nuclear fuel, to obtain electricity and active substances through repeated explosions of thermonuclear charges in a stationary installation...”
Economic calculations of the operation of VTR show that by using special charges it is possible to achieve that the active substance will be completely replenished, and in this case the price of the generated electricity will be comparable to the cost of energy generated at a nuclear power plant.
In the 1960s, the project proposed by Arzamas-16 scientists was not implemented. Soon all nuclear explosions, both military and peaceful, came under an international ban. The Americans, who were far behind our scientists and designers in this area, did everything possible to first slow down and then completely stop such work in Russia. And now the daring and original projects of our scientists have fallen into the category of “fantastic”.
Maybe we will still learn to light up the earthly stars we need so much?!