About the results of the “Big Book” award, the difficulties of editing, the dreams of the publisher, the small upcoming anniversary and the fact that Dmitry Bykov still cannot forgive her.
About the actual. What do you think about the results of the “Big Book” 2017? It is a rare case when among the laureates there are no authors of “Edited by Elena Shubina”...
Elena Shubina: Well, actually, it happened differently. I sincerely congratulate the winners of 2017, but I feel bad for the prose writers. This choice even revealed some kind of demonstration, an alarmist view of modern Russian prose. And this is in the year when Andrei Rubanov’s new novel “Patriot” appeared - for me this is a long-awaited text in which the reflection of our contemporary is presented with Trifonov’s force, the amazing “Secret Year” by Mikhail Gigolashvili and “Petrovs in the Flu and Around It” by Alexei Salnikov . Well, this author came to us like a hedgehog out of the fog! Thanks to the expert council of the “Big Book” for looking at it and for us reading it...
"Elena Shubina's editorial office" is a publishing house within a publishing house. How comfortable is it to not be aimed at the mass consumer while being in a commercial structure?
Elena Shubina: A large publishing holding is, in any case, a commercial structure if we understand it as a business. I came to AST with my projects, my authors, gradually expanding this “clearing”. Of course, relations with the holding’s managers have their own little trickles, a lot of disputes - this mainly concerns the determination of circulation - there are conflicts and even battles of local significance, but for me the most important thing is that there is no pressure in the choice of authors and texts. As for the mass consumer, the boundary between fiction (although today this word has a negative connotation, in fact it denotes literature that appeals to many) and high prose is not so clear. A reader of mass culture may well look into the clearing of high prose and... stay there (especially if there is fashion). Moreover, the “family novel,” which is now in great demand, is precisely balancing on this brink.
Speaking about “high prose”, one cannot help but recall that in 2008 you left the now legendary “VAGRIUS” for “AST”. Was it hard to leave?
Elena Shubina: Yeees. Now I can already say that it was stressful. The AST leadership tried to persuade me for a long time; they wanted their own circle of authors of “high literature” - that’s why they called me. I held out for a long time, but when, against the backdrop of a very difficult economic situation at Vagrius, my authors Viktor Pelevin and Lyudmila Ulitskaya left for EXMO, I realized that I could lose the team that remained with me (for now!). On December 28, 2007, I called Yuri Deikalo, the then director of AST, and said - I made up my mind, I’m leaving in March. Zakhar Prilepin, Alexander Kabakov, Mikhail Shishkin, Vladimir Sharov, Olga Slavnikova, Pavel Basinsky, Igor Sakhnovsky, Alexander Genis, Leonid Yuzefovich, and Sergei Shargunov, who was then starting, came with me...
...and in 2018 you have been at AST for 10 years. In fact, this is the anniversary of the “Elena Shubina Editorial Office,” despite the fact that the name appeared later. What is your dream as a publisher and editor? Any potential new author you would like to find?
Elena Shubina: Here I would place emphasis on the word “new” in general.
By the way, it is a good omen to send a new novel to the publisher on December 31st. I received “Laurel” by Evgeny Vodolazkin and “The Secret Year” by Mikhail Gigolashvili on December 31st.
For many, an editor is a person who sits and tinkers with other people’s letters. Often, few people know his name, except perhaps the author. You have become not just an editor, publisher, but a public person. Are you comfortable in this role?
Elena Shubina: In fact, I don’t feel like a public person and I’m very surprised when people suddenly recognize me. It's nice when readers come up and say: “Is that you? We love your books so much...” Another thing is that the profession of a publisher and editor now is not just “letters” - we must tirelessly draw attention to published books, communicate with bookstore directors, librarians, and the media. It's quite difficult to stay completely in the shade here. Moreover, Tatyana Stoyanova, the brand manager of RESH, simply won’t allow me to do this - I try not to miss all the events she started - “Page 17”, “Stories about me”, “Book talk”, “Novel of a Generation” and everything else. Have you noticed that in general a lot of people go to “literary meetings” now... The series of lectures “Direct Speech” gathers halls at different venues, and this is not the only popular project.
Once upon a time, the profession of editor was revered and respected. What about now? Today, thanks to special services, anyone can publish their own book.
Elena Shubina: Nowadays there really are many opportunities to present your text to people. But, to be honest, I don’t yet know of cases where “a person from Facebook” or from any service did not dream of publishing a printed book. As a rule, writing ambitions are still connected with this.
A literary editor is a reader and adviser. This is a profession with its own secrets. A book without a good editor is immediately obvious. Even if it’s some luxurious tome with a lot of money stuffed into it.
Your team consists entirely of young people and all your students. How to raise a venerable editor from a young chick?
Elena Shubina: I really have a wonderful team of young editors. These are no longer even students, but my colleagues. Although the profession of a topic editor is good - and I have told them about this more than once - that it contains enormous potential for self-development, for intellectual work, for constant learning - yes. All my collaborators are already known among writers; they have developed their own relationships with them. Try, for example, to take away Alexey Ivanov’s new novel from editor Alexei Portnov - neither one nor the other will understand me. It is very important to me that they all love their profession, that they are in it for a reason. But this is not an easy job - publishers will understand me...
Elena Shubina - editor - what is she like: strict? tough? persistent? uncompromising?
Elena Shubina: As soon as the editor-publisher has accepted the manuscript and is ready to give it life, he should be on the same team with the author, be his assistant. Yes, I can be very persistent in my suggestions; you need to come to a conversation with the author in full confidence that you are right. You must be on the side of the text and have the gift of persuasion. If there is no trust, if you cannot motivate (sometimes quite harshly) your thoughts, there will be no understanding. I would compare working on the manuscript to rehearsals before the premiere. The stage is ready, the roles have been assigned, but there is no one in the hall yet.
Elena Shubina: Anything can happen. By nature, I don’t like unmotivated lengths; I’m for dynamic text. In the theater I can easily leave during intermission simply because I already understand “how it’s done” and lose interest. It’s the same in editing—disputes most often arise around abbreviations. Alexander Terekhov, the author of the very long novel “Stone Bridge,” once said that there was no struggle with the editor (that is, with me): a throw, a blow, and the author is defeated, that is, he agrees to everything. In fact, of course, this was not so... Dmitry Bykov still cannot forgive that we did not publish Spelling (in Vagrius) in two volumes...
Do any funny stories happen to the editor?
Elena Shubina: The funniest story “from the life of an editor” and at the same time the fear of God is when you edit a manuscript and write remarks in the margins about what you read for yourself, and then, forgetting to erase it, send it to the author. Then you can only rely on the recipient’s sense of humor.
This year you published a collection of Lyceum award winners. Will you continue to collaborate with any of these guys?
Elena Shubina: I keep them all in sight. The agreement has been concluded, and the new book will be published by Zhenya Nekrasova in the spring. Christina Hepting, I am sure, will remain not only on the pages of the Lyceum.
I understand that you have been asked this question a million times: how to get to Elena Shubina? But what is needed for this? To be punchy? Extraordinary? Persistent?
Elena Shubina: Send your manuscript - and we will read and discuss.
AST books published by the editors of Russian modern prose have long been called “books by the editors of Elena Shubina” in the Internet space and among readers. In 2012, the editorial office of Russian contemporary prose was separated into a separate brand. The head of the editorial office, Elena Danilovna Shubina, is one of the leading experts in the field of Russian modern prose, whose opinion is recognized as authoritative both in the Russian publishing market and abroad. This is the case when the name is a guarantee of quality. Just like the names of Zakhar Prilepin, Evgeny Vodolazkin, Alexei Varlamov, Tatyana Tolstaya, Lyudmila Ulitskaya, Mikhail Shishkin - those who shape our new literature. “Edited by Elena Shubina” became the most influential trendsetter in literary trends. “Prizes are awarded exclusively to authors of the AST publishing house and specifically to the authors of Elena Shubina’s Editorial Board,” notes Konstantin Milchin in the article “Top Ten Conspiracy Theories in Literary Prizes.” And he is undoubtedly right - every year the publishing house’s books find themselves on the short lists of awards and collect all the high literary awards. But behind what some see as a conspiracy lies the painstaking work of editors, which ensures a high-quality selection of manuscripts and a high-quality standard of editorial preparation of texts. Each new book is an accurate strike straight to the target, and not a barrage of fire. “Laurel” by Evgeny Vodolazkin is a literary phenomenon, a “non-historical novel” that has earned countless awards, titles and features. Connoisseurs of modern prose call it the most powerful novel of the decade. The main character, a medieval doctor, in the name of the purest intention, travels not only through time and space, but also crosses his own spiritual rubicons. “The Abode” by Zakhar Prilepin In “The Abode” there is the history of the entire country with its pain, blood, hatred, reflected in Solovetsky Island, as in a mirror. First place among the “Big Book” award winners, shortlist for the “Russian Booker” award. “1993” by Sergei Shargunov is a family story set in an era of change, one of the most difficult periods for Russia. He and she are on opposite sides of the barricades, in the heat of a civil war that broke out in the ruins of a great country. The novel won the National Bestseller and Yasnaya Polyana awards. We have combined all the books “Edited by Elena Shubina” into one selection, and each of them is worthy of reading. It was not us or the critics who decided this - these books are chosen by the reader. These novels are debated, admired, talked about - also thanks to the editorship of Elena Shubina. Not every book can be called a work, but any book from the selection below deserves such a title.
When I first came to Eksmo, I was almost immediately given such authors as Vasily Aksenov, Vladimir Voinovich and Viktor Pelevin. It was like going into outer space! Pelevin is one of the most professional authors who works with his texts at the highest level, and he is a very interesting person. And yes, it really exists. You can meet him on the subway. It’s just that everyone got used to the fact that he doesn’t appear anywhere, and they lost their powers of observation. And he travels on the regular metro.
Fifteen to twenty manuscripts arrive by email to me every day, and there is a seasonal factor: more are sent in autumn and spring. I think this is due to the mental activity of the people who write. Our country, according to my observations, is even more writing than reading. But I don’t work with gravity alone, because it is physically impossible for one person to handle it. I have a large staff of professional reviewers whom I trust completely.
“He sent us manuscripts. They didn't fit for a number of reasons. Threatening calls began; letters with letters pasted on, like in the movies. He worked as a security guard in a private company and threatened with a weapon."
Sometimes I have to work under force majeure circumstances: they send me a manuscript, I read it very quickly, literally in one night or day. Then I call the author, tell him various positive things - you need to be careful with the author at this stage: even if you are going to criticize him, be sure to praise him first. Then we think together about when it’s best to release the book. In the summer, modern intellectual Russian prose in hardcover is not in great demand. People go on vacation or to the countryside; if they read at all at that time, they want something light. And if you open, for example, a new book by Yuri Buida or Roman Senchin, where there will be serious, no jokes, prose, for this it is early spring or autumn-winter.
About a year ago, a writer, a graduate of the Literary Institute, in his fifth decade of life, decided to publish stories a la Venichka Erofeev. Sent us manuscripts. They didn't fit for a number of reasons. And then the threatening calls began; letters with letters pasted on, like in the movies, I’ve never seen anything like this before. He worked as a security guard in a private company and threatened with a weapon. I was terribly scared. Our security team contacted his employers, he was fired, and he became even more angry. At some point I was scared to leave the publishing house - we are in a rather remote alley. And he made me a promise to pursue me all my life. I bought new glasses, dyed my hair - disguise, ha ha. Well... I somehow live with this, but what should I do?
Elena Shubina, chief editor of the Elena Shubina Editorial Office at Astrel Publishing House
An editor is that rare type of profession when the entire process is in your hands. When you not only see everything from beginning to end, but you do it - you make a book, sometimes even before the author has brought the manuscript. I have such a relationship with the authors that sometimes we discuss the idea of a book even before writing it. And sometimes, if we are talking about so-called non-fiction, I come up with this idea. A close example of this is the book “Aksenov” by Alexander Kabakov and Evgeny Popov.
There is an opinion - and not without reason - that no one works painstakingly with the author anymore: side by side, head to head. But in my editorial office they work exactly like this - if you take “side by side” as a kind of metaphor, because many of our authors live in other cities and even countries. But, alas, today there are many books that have not been touched by the hand of an editor (this is immediately obvious), and this makes a sad impression. There are many reasons for this, including the free market and the process of accelerating book publishing. In my editorial office, I resist this in every possible way, and if I see that a book, even by a very popular author expected on the book market, is not yet ready, I will work on it as much as necessary. At least six months, at least a year.
“The longer you are in the profession, the more the profession works for you. The editor, publisher is the same fisherman. He casts a net, pulls out different fish and decides what he is interested in or needs.”
We literally crafted Alexander Ilichevsky’s stunning novel “Persian” with four hands. After our first conversation, he undertook to redo it, change the plot, then somehow everything stalled - there was a constant call and correspondence between us, I already dreamed about these characters and the text at night. The whole story took more than six months before publication. Alexander Terekhov’s book “Stone Bridge” was difficult to read. The novel is complex and loaded, with an initial volume of 50 author's pages. Stalin's time, the nineties, a huge amount of material that the author collected for ten years. Of course, he wanted to keep everything, but I suggested cuts, and, accordingly, everything had to be redrawn, the internal dynamics of the text had to be changed. It was not an easy job. In my opinion, the author is still experiencing the “loss” and the fact that the name was changed. The novel was originally called “Not Long to Remain.” He received a second "Big Book" in 2009; The first award in the same year was also given to our author, Leonid Yuzefovich, with the novel “Cranes and Dwarfs.”
And here is work with Pavel Basinsky’s book “Leo Tolstoy. Escape from Paradise" went like clockwork. Although it all started very nervously. Pavel asked me to look at the first two chapters so that I could help him understand whether it was worth continuing. And I took it with caution - I think I know everything about this (“Tolstoy’s departure”), a whole closet of books on Tolstoy at home, and how to get out of it if you don’t like it? I read it and gasped: so good, so new. And she sent an SMS: “Continue urgently, this is amazing.”
The longer you are in the profession, the more the profession works for you. The editor, publisher is the same fisherman. He casts a net, pulls out different fish and decides what he is interested in or needs. Our entire portfolio consists of what my employees and I are looking for ourselves, and from what is offered to us, from what literary agents send for consideration, God bless them. Famous authors often pay attention to young people and advise them to watch it. They offer me a lot - I don’t have time to read, people are often offended that it takes so long. As for “poaching” authors, let’s say this: why not ask the question - would you like it?.. This is what all publishers do. Although in my case there are not so many “poached”. When I decided to move from Vagrius to AST, my authors - and this was the mainstream in those years - simply came with me. I appreciate it very much.
Mikhail Kotomin, publisher and editor of Russian prose at Ad Marginem publishing house
We have always chosen authors with their own author's voice. How to edit Sorokin, for example? He is a brilliant stylist. Here it makes sense to talk not about editing as a form of participation, but about advice. Do something with the ending, change the title, come up with an epigraph. My colleague Alexander Ivanov came up with an epigraph for the novel “Ice” by Sorokin. We jointly came up with the title of the novel “Sankya,” which was originally called “The Road in December.” The title is very important; I think that “Road in December” would not have had any bright future. For a very long time and not very successfully, the ending of the novel “Loneliness-12” by Revazov was invented. In general, the best editing is the absence of any editing. When you find the perfect text. But this is a lottery, of course.
There were two big exceptions to the practice of Ad Marginem; books that I made as an editor in the original understanding of this profession. The first is “Mr. Hexogen” by Prokhanov. Prokhanov is precisely a writer of the Soviet school, who obviously dictates manuscripts. They are all gigantic, with repetitions and typos. He was accustomed to what happened in Soviet times, when an absolutely readable text was made from his amorphous piece of text with characters and composition. And with this novel it was just a leap into the water - I tinkered with it for three months, cut it by a third, came up with an ending where Putin turns into a rainbow (pulled this fragment of text from a draft, from some broken file), and tried to make it great political detective novel. I am still proud of this work and periodically jealously look through some of Prokhanov’s books, in which you can tell by eye whether there was an editor or not. Because The Breath of Alexander Andreevich is a novel of 40 pages, and from “Mister Hexogen” I made about 25. This was my magnum opus. There was a similar story with Gigolashvili’s Ferris Wheel. It was called “Withdrawal”, and no one wanted to publish it - drugs, gigantic volume. The novel was shortened by about 20 percent and because of this it turned out to be more genre-specific.
“With “Mr. Hexogen” there was a leap into the water - I tinkered with it for three months, cut it by a third, came up with an ending where Putin turns into a rainbow, and tried to make a political detective story out of a big novel.”
Our attitude is this: the author must give his best. An editor is not a prop, an editor is someone who can strengthen the text and must set the minimum required. It's a strange team effort, even though a book is a more individual process than a movie or a magazine. But everyone has their own area. You cannot rewrite for the author, you need to let him do it himself as much as possible, but if the author admits that he is at a dead end, you can help him.
Large publishing houses have editors who create the genre. There is one historical anecdote about how Vagrius made a series about the Madman - paperback books that tore up the market in the 90s. Once I talked with one of the editors there and asked him how these trash texts were selected: they all look the same! And this uncle said that their security chief, who has a lot of free time, is doing this. They bring him manuscripts, he reads them and says: “This is what you need to take, and the rest goes into the basket.” In fact, genre thrash writers are the only thing that large publishing houses have created themselves, because they simply outbid all the other writers.
In the past, editors defined the publishing process. They guaranteed that the text would be read, defended manuscripts at meetings, and through them it was possible to enter the world of literature. And now - why are there no debuts? Firstly, because of the same planned economy. The entire fiction department of Eksmo is based on Pelevin’s sales. That is, how much Pelevin collects from the market is the budget for the entire department; there is enough space for two or three more authors of a lower rank. Secondly, due to the wild loss of influence of editors. Because when you tell the author that the thing is not finished and needs to be tweaked, he can listen and redo it - but he would rather go to AST or Eksmo, where they will definitely buy him if he has a name. And this is very sad - because there is no longer an interlocutor to whom the author can address.
Oleg Zobern, compiler and editor of the book series “Russian Lessons”
Yitzhak ben Shlomo Luria Ashkenazi, the founder of the Lurian movement of Kabbalah, believed that the world arose as a result of a catastrophe that followed an unsuccessful attempt at creation. In this regard, I think that the only way to become a literary editor is to fail miserably at something more natural, exciting, and rewarding. In a country where insanity and fear are in the air, the literary process (in a civilized form) is far from life. It is in the gap between literature and reality that the modern Russian book propagandist appears, like a hallucination. There are such old-fashioned heroes among literary editors - as a rule, they serve in small independent publishing houses, where adequacy glimmers.
“A beautiful text is hidden somewhere, with almost no chance of getting into the collective consciousness, but one day lightning begins to flash, the fog clears - and I appear, offering to sign an agreement.”
I defend the interests of shadow authors who do not send their manuscripts to publishing houses and do not engage in self-PR. That is, I am more of a private literary lawyer than an editor. The beautiful text is hidden somewhere, with almost no chance of getting into the collective consciousness, but one day lightning begins to flash, the fog clears - and I appear, offering to sign the contract. Next comes editing, typography, presentation, intimidation of critics, other dirty tricks, nomination for awards, and so on. This is how a book that claims to be non-idiotic begins to live. In search of authors, I travel a lot throughout the regions of Russia. And recently I took the social elevator down to the bottom floor of Moscow and found there - among the damp pipes and dim light bulbs - the author of number 14 for the series: his book will soon be published, which contains a cheerful and evil chthonic force.
Literary editors basically make money for the owner. Because they are corporate editors. In this sense, I am strict, unhelpful and always warn investors of the Russian Lessons project that it does not bring much profit, that this is my personal experimental workshop. A full-time literary editor as such is a galley slave. Occasionally he tears his vest, fighting against capitalism and ignorance in a particular editorial office, but he is immediately thrown overboard, after which he quietly drinks himself to death in his Moscow apartment, runs wild, and goes from hand to hand. Sometimes a literary editor wakes up at night and, huddled under the covers, experiences horror and primal loneliness. By morning he feels better. But in the end, years later, when almost everything is irreversibly gone, he suddenly clearly understands that he was doing x... and not living. From this moment hell begins for him. The editor curses what is most sacred, no longer believes in anything, hates the whole world, and one day falls screaming out of a fifteenth-floor window. However, some editors die in bed, surrounded by their grandchildren, with a smile and the conviction that they were useful to society.
Nikolai Alexandrov: Elena Shubina has long had a reputation as perhaps the best Russian literary editor and an absolute expert on modern Russian literature. But recently another rather important point has appeared on her track record. The editorship of Elena Shubina is known to everyone today. Since it is in this edition that books by contemporary authors are published, they are published by the AST publishing house, which are not only well known to the modern reading audience, but also win various prestigious literary awards. And, of course, this places a special responsibility on Elena Shubina. Today we will talk about the books edited by Elena Shubina.
And Elena Shubina is our guest. Lena, hello.
Elena Shubina:Hello, Kolya.
N.A.: Firstly, I, of course, cannot help but say this. In recent years, it seems to me that it was Elena Shubina’s editorial team that captured almost all literary prizes. And there is not a year when, in one way or another, the books you publish are not awarded one or another literary awards.
E.Sh.:This is not entirely true in reality. These books are just very noticeable. But in fact, the Russian Booker Prize is not so old in relation to the editorship of Elena Shubina. Yes, our last hero is Pyotr Aleshkovsky. But before that these were not my heroes. "Big Book" and "National Bestseller", here is Yuzefovich's novel.
N.A.: Is there any strategy? After all, the editorial office is, first of all, probably the selection of authors and books.
E.Sh.:The strategy is actually simple. The selection of authors is the selection of authors. But for me, the most important thing is that any book is not what is called invisible, so that the fate of the book does not end as soon as it hits the shelves of bookstores and libraries. My favorite and big task is to draw attention to it, so that it can be seen.
N.A.: What is modern editing? By the way, they often complain that editors, like proofreaders, are such a dying class?
E.Sh.:In reality, of course, there are problems. Because there really are fewer professional literary editors. I work with very good editors. And the literary editor is no different now or before. Another thing is that an editor who works in a publishing house and publishes a book is, to a certain extent, also a manager, something that did not exist before. That is, in direct contact with the printing house, with the artist, he thinks about the fate of the book. In the future, he somehow promotes it, as they say now. So here we can slightly separate the publishing editor, who is responsible for the book in its entirety, and the literary one. Nothing has changed in literary editing. In the same way, you need to love the author and enter this world. When deciding whether to publish a book, you can read, as they say, 30-50 pages. In fact, it's still more. But it's possible. Read it right away and be engrossed. But in order to start preparing a book, then, of course, you need to get into it to the very end and fall in love with it. Even if you didn't really like her at first. But if you accepted her, you will love her.
N.A.: But in principle everything remains the same?
E.Sh.: Certainly.
N.A.: These are still manuscripts.
E.Sh.: Certainly.
N.A.: And the large flow of manuscripts?
E.Sh.:These are still manuscripts. Only now it is called the electronic version. In general, I went through all these stages in my professional biography. I remember the manuscripts. I remember how they brought this flat square floppy disk. Now it’s simple: either they send you a small flash drive, and so on. But the essence is the same - this is the text. It doesn't matter.
N.A.: But proofreading still remains, right?
E.Sh.:Certainly. Both the first and the second. And in general, while a book is in progress, it is read at least 4 times: 2 times by the editor, 2 times by the proofreader.
N.A.: Len, but still, as a rule, these are already authors who have declared themselves, the writers with whom you deal, or not?
E.Sh.:It's different. Those who have announced themselves and those who have been in the publishing house for a long time, with whom I have been working for a long time, they really, as a rule, do not abandon me. And I have such very long-term relationships with some authors. So sometimes we even discuss in advance what will happen in the next novel. But, of course, the main task of the publisher-editor is to still look for new names. And they are still there.
N.A.: If we talk about the latest discoveries...
E.Sh.:Guzel Yakhina "Zuleikha opens her eyes." I cannot call Evgeny Vodolazkin absolutely my discovery, because “Soloviev and Larionov” was published by the publishing house before that. I really love this novel. It’s a pity that when they talk about the novel “Laurel,” they don’t remember that one. But such a real success, in fact a bestseller, we can safely call it that, began with the novel “Laurel,” of course. And the novel "The Aviator" has already built into this success. They loved him too.
N.A.: Guzel Yakhina is perhaps the youngest author, because, if we talk about Vodolazkin, he is also still rooted in this literary world.
E.Sh.:If we are talking about young authors... Or we are talking about debutants.
N.A.: Is this somehow connected?
E.Sh.:Guzel Yakhina, for example, is a debutant. But if it’s a young author, then it’s more likely Alisa Ganieva, whom we started publishing, it seems, 4 years ago. Once upon a time, excuse me, there was a young author Zakhar Prilepin, whose first things I also followed " Ad Marginem " began to publish. In general, you need to do what is called spinning all the time, looking for authors. Constantly. In contact with literary agents, with magazines, just reading by chance. This is such a constant process.
N.A.: Ah, from your point of view... Previously, there was a situation when the circle of authors (by the way, quite a few years ago - I think that this situation has not changed too much) was, in general, quite united and integral. It could be determined one way or another from literary magazines. By the way, there were quite a lot of intersections. And, in general, they seemed to be the most in demand. And the appearance of new names was always associated with some surprise.
E.Sh.:Firstly, what names are we talking about? When everything was quite predictable, and the circle of authors...
N.A.: I think the 1990s, for example, the 2000s.
E.Sh.:The 1990s are a fundamentally different situation compared to the previous time, because, of course, the literary map has become much more colorful. Because Mamleev appeared in our country, Sorokin appeared in our country, Pelevin flourished in our country, which never happened at all. And this is the case when, as Sinyavsky said, “there are aesthetic differences with the Soviet government.” It was these aesthetic differences that prevented these writers from being published. But as for the 1990s and 2000s, in fact, at the turn of the late 1990s and early 2000s, the situation changed a lot. Because modern prose has become much more different and diverse. In general, for some time modern prose was not so much out of favor, but a little unclaimed. For obvious reasons: social breakdown, interest in journalism. And so on and so forth.
But in the early 2000s, very interesting and very different novels already appeared. I completely disagree with when they say that modern prose is in such decline and that it is quite monotonous, and so on, and so on. That there is no such and such a line there. Now, it seems to me, there is a lot of everything.
N.A.: Still, don’t you get the impression that these social issues and this canonical novel writing continue to dominate? Even among those books that were published by your editors, in general, we can say that this is still such a big traditional style.
E.Sh.:This is probably the time to start using some names. Sergey Kuznetsov "Kaleidoscope of water". Mikhail Shishkin is a traditional everyday novel.
N.A.: It depends on which Shishkin you mean. This is still not “The Taking of Ishmael”, it is not even “The Hair of Venus”. And his last thing is quite traditional. And his latest collection is simply prose in general, which refers, I don’t know, to the traditions of Soviet prose of the end of the last century.
E.Sh.:What kind of novel is this?
N.A.: I don’t mean a novel.
E.Sh.: Collection…
N.A.: Yes, absolutely right.
E.Sh.:Collection... Firstly, what he implements in his prose, he explains. His favorite topic is that there is no history at all, we live in our own completely identical personal space, and so on, and so on. Here, by the way, they picked it up... Well, they didn’t pick it up, but they profess this theory. Vodolazkin spoke in the same spirit, Sergei Kuznetsov.
But let’s digress a little from Shishkin. I just think that he works in the same stylistic manner all the time, starting with The Taking of Ishmael, which is really my favorite novel. But the latter is also built according to approximately the same...
N.A.: “Writer” do you mean?
E.Sh.:Yes, "Writer".
N.A.: But it is much more simplified, it seems to be written in an emphatically simpler manner than “The Taking of Ishmael.”
E.Sh.:I do not think so. And there this theme of time, dear to him, which interlocks like this, intersects all the time. And there are practically no visible seams between the end of one time and the beginning of another.
N.A.: Then he would not have ceased to be Shishkin.
E.Sh.:Yes. Returning to the first name, Sergei Kuznetsov, with a very complex novel. Yes, he was not very appreciated, in my opinion, in these premium stories, which is completely in vain. But this cannot in any way be called an everyday, traditional, etc. novel.
N.A.: But, nevertheless, I remember that during the discussion of the “NOS” (new literature, new sociality) award, Kuznetsov’s novel was, of course, mentioned. But one way or another, all those words that were spoken, they were again more associated with nostalgia, with the time that is reflected, and, again, with that traditionally memoir-retrospective layer that we actually notice quite often today.
E.Sh.:The fact is that on this topic that retrospection, nostalgia and what is called a non-historical novel, that is, a novel with all historical connotations, but which is not a genre in the purely historical sense, this has now become such a commonplace. It seems to me that people are even getting too carried away with this. I absolutely disagree with what they said at the discussion of “UFO” about Kuznetsov’s novel. I'm reading it completely wrong. And we got too carried away by this theme of the constant presence of history. Because the latest successes and premium stories are really related to what things? Guzel Yakhina "Zuleikha opens her eyes." "The Abode" by Zakhar Prilepin. Vladimir Sharov, who in his novels always has the same theme, the whole history of the Russian revolution, which was born from within. This was not invented by German spies and so on. It grew out of Russian sectarianism and so on. But it seems to me that they are getting too carried away with this now. Because if you remember, say, “The Old Man” by Trifonov, there is also a powerful layer of memories of the main character, this old Bolshevik, about the civil war. And he unravels this whole plot in the same way, trying to understand something in modern life. This is the first.
And the second is the reproach that now there are almost no works about modernity. They call it the 1990s, then the 2000s. That is, here and now, relatively speaking. From the point of view of history, the 1990s are also here and now. Such things have appeared now. And not even yesterday. It is very interesting. The 1990s are “Matisse” by Ilichevsky. Let's remember. This is "Cranes and Dwarfs" by Leonid Yuzefovich.
N.A.: How does he tell, build a story and actually create an artistic world before our eyes? And in this sense, “Cranes and Dwarfs” or, for example, the same Guzel Yakhina are quite traditional with artistic techniques recognizable to the reader - narrations, short stories, and so on. Moreover, Russian literature knew completely different examples of a different language and a different writing - both Platonov and Dobychin. If earlier, then Remezov or Pelnyak. And it’s as if suddenly all this was not available now or was not in demand. This narrative simplicity is not even plot-based, but rather chronicle, when the plot simply dissolves in time. This is a description of a person's life. Isn't that dominant now?
E.Sh.:Don’t you think that this chronicle simplicity, which is almost on the verge of some kind of clip thinking, is generally one of the characteristic features of modern prose. So you called Gyuzel Yakhina “Zuleikha opens her eyes.” This is a purely external impression on the topic, that this is something that has already been written about. But “Zuleikha opens her eyes”, “Alitet goes to the mountains”, some socialist realist works. But speaking from the point of view of language, this is a very modern thing. This is somewhere on the verge... Alexey Ivanov, it seems, came up with such a name - a grammar series. That is, this is not soap, but, nevertheless, such a rather dry and mobile presentation of the novel.
Then, as for this traditional letter... I have the impression that, on the contrary, there is now such a very big shortage of such a traditional family novel, which is absolutely wildly in demand. It seems like it's a lot of these things. Here is the success of, say, Marina Stepnova’s novel “The Women of Lazarus,” and the success is simply deafening, if we remember that she, too, was almost a debutante. Before that there was one novel, and then there was a big book. And very large circulations. Forgive me, as a publisher, I must also operate with the concept of “circulation”, because circulation means readers, many readers or few readers. I attribute the success of Stepnova’s novel “The Women of Lazarus” precisely to the fact that they want a family novel. Relatively speaking, something like Ulitskaya. After all, Ulitskaya’s success is enormous. She's a wonderful writer. Moreover, it has been a great success not only here, but also abroad in certain countries.
It is also connected with the fact that this is some kind of storytelling skill. Still, a novel can be very different. But, nevertheless, the stories of different people should be told there. And it seems to me that there is such a need for this... I also really love avant-garde literature. Still, to a greater extent, probably... and in St. Petersburg, for example, Sergei Nosov, a writer who is such a very St. Petersburg writer, winner of the National Bestseller award the year before or last year - here you have such a conventional avant-garde. Or the very original Andrey Astvatsaturov, who is completely far from such traditional writing.
It seems to me that you are somehow flattening this picture a little. It is still very diverse. And Sorokin’s constant success is what Pelevin gives away.
N.A.: They have already become classics, after all, Len.
E.Sh.:Will we talk only about new writers, or about classics?
N.A.: For example, this is a curious thing, since we already mentioned Evgeny Vodolazkin. His latest novel is "The Aviator", where some interesting plot appears for the first time. Not just history and not just chronicle. But it turns out that the writer cannot cope with it. Doesn't know what to do with the hero in the second part of the novel. After all, he clearly fails completely.
E.Sh.:I do not think so. Firstly, just like “Laurel” - a very bold novel in the sense of breaking the genre, when in general they expected that there would just be something like this... the author, a specialist in ancient Russian literature, and there would be something calm, long and so Further. Moreover, he knows the subject and equipment perfectly well. “Aviator” is also a break in the genre of such a boulevard. I think he handled it quite well. I know there are very different opinions on this matter. But I have a different impression. That is, I also have questions about this novel. But still they are not in this vein. It's not that he failed at all.
N.A.: So it seems to you that the plot structure of a man who was frozen on Solovki woke up in our life and begins to somehow realize past realities and present realities, and then, firstly, his beloved and daughter appear beloved, it seems to you that the writer here is not lost in this scheme.
E.Sh.:I guess that maybe he understood that he was taking this kind of risk, on the one hand breaking the genre, and on the other hand making it all quite simple. But this one was defrosted, frozen, and so on. In fact, it’s not a matter of who was unfrozen and so on. It's like a person who came out of nowhere. You can remember Robinson Crusoe "Gulliver" and whatever. "The Raising of Lazarus". I see some very big connotations behind this, besides such a simple plot about freezing.
This was a difficult task. And I say that I have some questions for him. But I think this romance worked out.
N.A.: After all, in fact, if we are talking about a plot-based work, and not just a chronicle and chronological one, the plot is an additional meaning that makes the reader go back and see the story in a completely different way. Is this what you see in modern literature?
E.Sh.:I, perhaps, still see this in modern literature. Because even when we just talked about a traditional family novel, you interpret it all as such a flat linear narrative. I don’t see this in modern prose. That is, this also exists, but absolutely not only this.
I would even say so. That I, as strange as it may seem... I remember Trifonov very often. We even talked a little about this at the beginning of the conversation. What we are missing now is Trifonov’s line. This type of reflection. But in modern novels it suddenly appears in an unexpected way. And even at the plot level. For example, there is such a wonderful writer, you know him, Andrei Rubanov, who essentially began with the fact that his very unique biography of a man of the 1990s who went through prosperity and a scrip, and a prison, and began with the novel “Plant and It Grows,” such a very acute biographical one. Here is his latest novel, called “The Patriot” (it has already been published). And there the hero is about the same. That is, this is a hero also from the 1990s, who went through all these things. But this is already... I don’t want to say the word “loser”, but something like that. Who was disappointed, who no longer became so rich, who lost his family, but found something else, who wants to go (this is, however, quite ironically presented) to the “war in the south of the country.” We understand what we are talking about. In the end, everything turns out differently. And I recognize here the type of Trifonov’s reflection, but with a completely different hero. And in any case, the plot is still built through the hero, through some of his actions. And although the novel now has such an extensible concept, and you yourself wrote about this, that the novel can now actually contain everything, but still, it seems to me, no one has canceled that at the heart of the novel lies some kind of change of fate.
N.A.: Still, Trifonov would hardly have sent his hero to America to San Francisco in order to use the metaphor.
E.Sh.:But this is a different hero. It is very interesting. It would seem so familiar to us that reflection is always the intelligentsia, it is always a person, even such an intellectual ghetto in the case of Trifonov. This is a person who does not agree, who does not accept what is here and now. And, by the way, now such novels are also appearing. That this is a different hero. But suddenly it is essentially like a discovery that he is also experiencing this type of reflection.
N.A.: And if we talk about how well-made the novel is, don’t you think that the ending of this novel is quite artificial? There is a good metaphor - fighting the elements. The hero dies in the waves. And so, in order to use this metaphor, you need to do something with the hero, of course. Apparently there is nothing you can do about it except get rid of it. In general, a fairly traditional novel move. For this purpose, such a thing is invented...
E.Sh.:That's it. Quite a traditional novel move. Sometimes it seems to me that you definitely expect something from modern prose writers that would in no way resemble any traditional novelistic move.
N.A.: But I’m interested in how the novel world is built. If it is built, in general, in principle on fairly simple and mechanical techniques, when I see the logic of development not of the character himself, but of the logic of the writer himself, who has a beautiful metaphor and who immerses the hero in this metaphor.
E.Sh.:You know, you and I probably read the same novels completely differently. Perhaps this is reflected in the fact that I, as a publisher, am simply already involved in this world and I always find myself on the side of the author if I have already published this novel and accepted it for publication. What you say... For me, this ending was unexpected and really hooked me. From the middle of Rubanov’s novel it is clear that the hero will not go to fight in the south of the country. This means it is very well done. Although he repeats this all the time. But you understand that there is some kind of trick hidden here, something like that... But the ending itself with its...
N.A.: A separate story. I agree.
E.Sh.:It seems to me that this is an excellent and quite unexpected move.
E.Sh.:We are talking purely about modern prose.
N.A.: Okay. Not about modern.
E.Sh.:Simply because I have a fairly diverse editorial plan. There are books of literary criticism. For example, we prepared a wonderful book with the participation of Shklovsky’s heir, Nikita Efimovich, which is called “The Most Shklovsky”. The name defines everything. This can be called "chosen one". It's actually a beautifully crafted composition that represents this comet in a completely different way.
E.Sh.:Yes. Maybe after our book this will somehow motivate our young prose writers. In general, in fact, you know, it’s the same as in the case of Platonov, whom you mentioned... It’s very difficult to imitate both of them. Precisely because apparent simplicity... In relation to Platonov, I consciously say this - apparent simplicity. Although he is a very complex writer. She just really gets in the way. Seems very easy to imitate. There will be one more wonderful moment in this book. Nikita Shklovsky provided us with letters of correspondence between him and his grandfather when he was still a young man. It is very interesting.
N.A.: Len, thank you very much for the conversation.
E.Sh.: Thank you.
Elena Danilovna Shubina shared with GOST her love for work, the secrets of her editorial team, and told why the cover of a book is as important as the content.
It is always interesting to talk with a person who knows his business and lives it. And if this is a person with the mysterious profession of a book publisher, the conversation becomes doubly interesting.
You said that you make a decision about publishing a book based on whether you would like to have this book in your library or not
In a sense, yes. If this concerns reprints, for example, then I use this very often, because in addition to the fact that we release new books, we also release the so-called “forgotten” classics of the 70s, which are simply not republished now. We have a series of “Cult Objects” - reissues of Okudzhava, Sinyavsky and so on. But, despite the presence of a personal element in choosing a book, there are many other important factors. For example, I understand that this book is not entirely mine, but I see that this is some new, fresh voice. Or let’s say it’s not my genre, but it’s written in an interesting way. I'm not sure that it will be in my home, but reader demand must also be taken into account. As a result, some of the books are stored in the office where I work, but most of them are still in my home library.
Elena Shubina · Photo: Harvard Business Review Russia
How do you know if a book is good?
I saw the time when they brought manuscripts typed on a typewriter - and this is at best, usually it was all written by hand. Now, as a rule, they are simply sent by mail, and we print or read from the screen - it all depends on the purpose. Just to get acquainted and understand whether I will publish it, I read it in a book reader. But this does not change the essence: no matter what form the manuscript is in, there is always a text in front of you, and you must understand whether you accept it.
Still, every profession has its secrets, let’s put it this way.
50 pages of the manuscript are enough to read to understand whether this book is worth publishing or not
For example, a diagnostician has, in addition to some general knowledge, a professional instinct, just as a publisher has an instinct. As a rule, it’s enough for me to read 30-50 pages to understand whether it’s worth taking or not. There is a language in which the author writes, and you see how well he speaks it; what is important is the ability to tell a story, that is, simply a plot. And if the work is written in a dull, completely inexpressive language, where the characters speak in the same hackneyed phrases with the same intonations, then this thing is already in doubt. It’s another matter when you generally like the text, but you understand that the editor needs to work with it, and this is already being done either by myself or by the editors who collaborate with me.
How much can an editor afford to interfere with a book?
At a certain stage, at the very beginning, you can give advice: either change the ending, or give more dynamics to the story, or add expressiveness to the hero’s language - the editor’s advice is very important. Another thing is that the author must trust the editor; edits must be motivated, because writers, like any creative people, are very sensitive. A certain amount of internal motivation and trust are very important. As a rule, they don’t take offense at me, because there is a law that I religiously observe: if the author categorically does not agree to make changes, then the last word is his. But this is a rare case; usually the editor’s motivation is convincing.
Works published by Elena Shubina's editorial team. What books would you like to publish?
It seems that I have sufficiently filled in some important gap for myself. I would really like to start a good re-release of Bunin. The situation has developed that few publishing houses can find contact with legal heirs who do not live in Russia. The publication of Bunin's texts could have been more seriously commented on if it had been possible to involve an archive that is not located with us. I conducted negotiations and went to Paris for this, but, unfortunately, we did not find a common language with the copyright holders. In fact, a whole circle of specialists should be involved in the reprinting, since there are plans to publish both an academic publication and a popular publication.
It happens that sometimes I see on bookstore shelves something that I would like to publish myself. Especially with modern prose - sometimes you didn’t see it, sometimes you didn’t understand it, and then the book is a success, and you regret it. Even instinct can sometimes deceive. The simplest case is with Boris Akunin, who, before achieving such wild success, at first could not find a publisher for a very long time. But in the end he found a niche that was not occupied by anyone.
You once said that a book is more than just text
A book shapes some important moments in a person’s life. A book is perhaps a more accessible form of art than, say, music. One of the greats said that people are divided into two types: those who read and did not read “The Captain’s Daughter” in childhood. But what is “The Captain's Daughter”? This is a novel-apology of honor, “take care of honor from a young age.” At a certain age, this beautiful text forms some moral concepts. Maybe I also meant the book as a material object. It must be well published, because a book is also a cover and layout. In Russia there was a wonderful dynasty of talented book artists, but now, alas, everything is not so good.
What role does the cover play?
Authors with whom Elena Shubina works: Zakhar Prilepin, Evgeny Vodolazkin, Lyudmila Ulitskaya, Dmitry Bykov, Leonid Yuzefovich, Igor Guberman, Alexey Ivanov, Maya Kucherskaya, Alexander Genis, Pavel Basinsky, Marina Stepnova, Roman Senchin, Sergey Nosov, Alisa Ganieva, Vsevolod Benigsen, Anna Matveeva and many others .
The cover of a book is very important, because it orients the reader towards a certain perception of the text. If a serious novel has some kind of horror on the cover, then such incorrect positioning can simply turn off the reader. I participate in choosing the cover, sign each binding, and if I don't agree with how the book is illustrated, I find another artist or ask for a different sketch.
What books did you read as a child?
You know, I was lucky - I had a very good, so-called “bookcase,” so I started reading “adult” books very early. For example, I really loved Gogol’s “Evenings on a Farm near Dikanka,” and “Dead Souls” simply fascinated me. I loved Chekhov very much. Then wonderful books were written for junior and senior school age - from “The Adventures of Dunno” to the translated “Silver Skates”.
Do you have time to read outside of work?
I really like rereading Bunin, I love good detective stories, for example, Agatha Christie, but only in a good translation. Agatha Christie in a good translation is excellent English literature, and not just a detective story, but in a bad translation it is just reading matter. I’m currently re-reading “The Magic Mountain” by Thomas Mann. In general, outside of work, I have to read little. Sometimes I read in foreign languages, but to the point - for example, literary reviews.
Tell us about today's problems in publishing
The main problem is the so-called promotion of the book so that it does not remain invisible on store shelves. Therefore, we constantly have to work with stores, with distributors, and talk about these books. In general, the problems are the same all over the world: loss of interest in books, low circulation, closure of large publishing houses. But you have to fight and love what you do.